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And it was like, we were the first platform to do it. To our credit, we got rid of that, but it was a hard decision. We couldn't run the site and we had to take down huge sections of the site. When we had those unauthorized nude photos, our growth spiked so much we almost couldn't run the platform anymore. That's where we had our growth, when there was something controversial.

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Like at Reddit, when there was something controversial, our numbers spiked, huge amounts. That is the kind of engagement that drives a ton of traffic. It feels like they're thinking, “All right, let's do the minimum to get through these PR crises.” And then, you know, just go back to normal because it's not just that they only care about engagement. Do you think this election is changing the temperature at all? Or is moderation just happening because lawmakers are looking at tech platforms? One of the things you've been trying to make clear for the past few years is how media platforms are wholly focused on engagement, and it doesn't matter what kind of engagement it is-unless regulation is imminent. I think it'll be interesting to see how they treat people and rule-breaking going forward when it's not the leader of the country, and whether they take deep look at what happened, what their role was in it, and what they want to see happen going forward and change their rules, change their approach, and really think about what they want their company to stand for. The argument for letting Trump and his surrogates spew misinformation on Facebook and Twitter has usually been "he's the president, so it's newsworthy," and that won't be the case anymore under a Biden Presidency-do you think there's a sense that won't matter? And it's so toxic and it's been so harmful. And not just on Twitter, but it also gets pulled by the mainstream press and shared in articles and shared online. And that's what the most effective use of the Twitter platform has been for the past four years. Trump has how many millions, tens of millions-I think it's close to 100 million followers. It's outrageous, the links that are most shared on Facebook! I mean, it's embarrassing, I think, to Facebook management that this is the stuff that their platform is best at sharing and best at amplifying. Kevin Roose for The New York Times has a Twitter account that just tweets like the 10 most popular or highest-engagement posts on Facebook, you've seen that, right?

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How do you think the symbiosis between Trump and media platforms is going to pan out? I know Trump has been very good for TV news ratings, and it seems like he is for social media platforms too. And I don't know if that's going to happen. You know, to say like, “Hey, we cannot tolerate intolerance, we can't both-sides hate and white supremacy.” Right? Like these are the things that require real change. Or: if they say, you know, we need to change our values. Are they going to say, “Oh, this is an exception for one outlier that's now been defeated, thanks to our efforts?” It's amazing to see people take credit for some of this late-breaking behavior. Right, because that implies a deeper, core value shift.ĭo you think that the incentives then, for more moderation and less euphemism, have started to shift already?

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Re-alignment seems to be too strong a word for this. This is why she spent election night finding it particularly rich that, after years of trepidation, the cable news set suddenly took care to push back against Donald Trump's consistent claims of voter fraud. Pao, in other words, is someone who knows what it's like to make a tough call in spite of a volatile internet audience. Pao's involvement in this, and other moderation efforts-as well as being one of the few women at the head of a major tech company-made her and other Reddit employees the target of some of the internet's worst and most motivated trolls, the sort that the rest of the world would not be acquainted with for several years.

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She was there for its most tumultuous era, when the company began a crackdown on involuntary pornography, otherwise known as "revenge porn." It was, at the time, an unthinkable reckoning-a company moderating its most toxic communities from the top down on an unprecedented scale, the kind of public intervention that Facebook and Twitter have only recently started doing after years of sustained pressure. A tech investor and co-founder of Project Include, an advocacy group for equality in the tech industry, Pao is most widely known as the former CEO of Reddit. Ellen Pao has seen people at their worst.










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